Legislature(1995 - 1996)
01/18/1996 01:35 PM Senate L&C
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
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SENATE LABOR AND COMMERCE COMMITTEE
January 18, 1996
1:35 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Senator Tim Kelly, Chairman
Senator John Torgerson, Vice Chairman
Senator Mike Miller
Senator Jim Duncan
Senator Judy Salo
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
SENATE BILL NO. 202
"An Act relating to the State Board of Registration for Architects,
Engineers, and Land Surveyors."
PREVIOUS SENATE COMMITTEE ACTION
SB 202 - No previous senate committee action.
WITNESS REGISTER
Senator Loren Leman
State Capitol, Juneau, Alaska, 99801-1182¶(907)465-2095
POSITION STATEMENT: prime sponsor of SB 202
Catherine Reardon, Director
Division of Occupational Licensing
Department of Commerce & Economic Development
P.O. Box 110806, Juneau, AK 99811-0806¶(907)465-2538
POSITION STATEMENT: opposes SB 202
Dick Armstrong
Anchorage, AK
POSITION STATEMENT: supports SB 202
Colin Maynard
1400 W. Benson, Ste. 500, Anchorage, AK 99517¶(907)274-3660
POSITION STATEMENT: supports SB 202
Merle Jantz
1648 Cushman St., #200, Fairbanks, AK 99701¶(907)451-9353
POSITION STATEMENT: supports SB 202
Mike Tauriainen
35186 Spur Hwy, Soldotna, AK 99669¶(907)262-4624
POSITION STATEMENT: supports SB 202
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 96-4, SIDE A
Number 001
CHAIRMAN KELLY called the Senate Labor and Commerce Committee
meeting to order at 1:35 p.m.
Number 005
CHAIRMAN KELLY brought up SB 202 as the first order of business
before the Senate Labor & Commerce Committee. The chairman called
Senator Leman as the first witness.
Number 008
SENATOR LEMAN, prime sponsor of SB 202, stated the legislation
relates primarily to autonomy for the Board of Architects,
Engineers, & Land Surveyors (AELS Board). It would also change the
composition of the board: SB 202 would not require a position to be
reserved for a mining engineer. The board would then consist of
two civil engineers, one land surveyor, three engineers from other
branches of the engineering profession, two architects, and one
public member. Senator Leman noted that there are many more
engineers in other fields than in mining. That would give other
branches of engineering better representation on the board. In
addition, it has been difficult to fill the mining engineer
position on the board, which is currently vacant.
SENATOR LEMAN informed the committee that the main reason for SB
202 is to give the AELS Board more autonomy, which he thinks will
allow the board to function better.
Number 065
SENATOR LEMAN stated the AELS Board would also like to see a more
formalized process for giving the governor input on appointments to
the board. That process is contained in Section 1, paragraphs (1)
and (2) of SB 202.
Number 075
SENATOR MILLER asked for a breakdown on the numbers of engineers in
each field.
SENATOR LEMAN replied he had a copy of that information. As of the
end of the last fiscal year, there were 2,394 civil engineers, 474
electrical engineers, 542 mechanical engineers, 70 chemical
engineers, 67 petroleum engineers, 44 mining engineers, 562
architects, and 714 land surveyors licensed with the AELS board.
Senator Leman thinks it's important to have a mining engineer on
the board, but thinks it is also important that other disciplines
be represented on the board.
CHAIRMAN KELLY called Ms. Reardon to testify.
Number 110
CATHERINE REARDON, Director, Division of Occupational Licensing,
Department of Commerce & Economic Development, stated opposition to
SB 202. Ms. Reardon said she understands the frustration of the
AELS Board with the Division of Occupational Licensing. She knows
the board has not always received the level of service from the
division that the board has desired, but the division is not
staffed to provide the level of service the board desires. More
government, even if provided by user fees, is not the direction in
which the administration, and probably the legislature, want to go.
In addition, she doesn't think making the board autonomous from the
Division of Occupational Licensing will resolve the concerns of the
AELS Board. The AELS Board is part of government, not part of the
private sector, so she thinks regulations should be reviewed by the
Department of Law, and not by contracted attorneys. Regulations
will at times be rejected.
Number 160
MS. REARDON stated the department has no opposition to deleting the
designated mining engineer seat. It is true that there are very
few mining engineers, which has caused difficulties.
Number 175
MS. REARDON stated the Governor's Office had expressed concern over
the specification that the governor would consider names put
forward by the professional society. It is the governor's
intention to consider names from all sources, so it doesn't seem
necessary to put that specification in statute.
Number 185
MS. REARDON thinks, regarding the section on per diem and expenses,
allowing a board to set its' own per diem rate would not provide
the necessary checks and balances. She is also concerned that the
AELS Board would be receiving compensation that none of the other
boards currently receive. She stated that section would also
result in an increased fiscal impact.
Number 210
MS. REARDON noted that under SB 202 all AELS Board staff positions
would go from being classified positions to being exempt positions.
She stated SB 202 also raises the issue of contracting out for
legal services. Ms. Reardon is not sure whether the board intends
to contract out legal services, but she does not believe that would
be manageable.
Number 240
MS. REARDON stated the board would still fall under the Department
of Commerce & Economic Development, but the board would have to
perform its' own administrative and support duties. Since the
board only meets four times per year, she thinks the staff for the
board would not have much oversight.
Number 290
CHAIRMAN KELLY asked Ms. Reardon how many boards and commissions
actually pay their own way.
MS. REARDON responded that the boards and commissions are required
by statute to pay their own way. DCED is required by AS 08.01.065
to review the regulatory costs for the past two years and set fees
to cover those costs. When it is found that an area did not cover
its' cost, the fees are raised. If too much money has been
collected, then fees are lowered.
Number 305
CHAIRMAN KELLY asked Ms. Reardon if boards with small numbers of
licensees, such as naturopaths and concert promoters, carry their
own weight in terms of licensing fees.
MS. REARDON replied that they do. She stated that licensing fees
are more impacted by disciplinary action and litigation than they
are from processing for licensure, which is the reason marine
pilots licensing fees are so high.
CHAIRMAN KELLY asked if there was any legislation this year
relating to marine pilots.
MS. REARDON responded there wasn't.
CHAIRMAN KELLY asked for testimony from people on line via
teleconference.
Number 350
DICK ARMSTRONG, P.E., Chairman of the AELS Board, testifying from
Anchorage, supports SB 202. Mr. Armstrong read written testimony,
which was submitted to the committee. He raised issues regarding
disciplinary action, automation, personnel, costs, and
responsiveness. In Summary, Mr. Armstrong stated SB 202 would
reduce government and costs, and be more responsive and effective.
Number 390
COLIN MAYNARD, Alaska Professional Design Council, testifying from
Anchorage, supports SB 202. Mr. Maynard thinks SB 202 will make
the board more efficient, will continue with necessary discipline
action, and will make the AELS Board a better and a cheaper board.
Number 400
MERLE JANTZ, Vice-Chairman of the AELS Board, testifying from
Fairbanks, supports SB 202. Mr. Jantz informed the committee that
many other states have a semi-autonomous board, their fees are
lower than Alaska's, and that their level of service is higher. He
stated Oregon's board is an example of the type of board he would
like to see in Alaska.
Number 415
MIKE TAURIAINEN, Member of the AELS Board, testifying from Kenai,
stated though he is not testifying on behalf of the board, he
supports SB 202. He said other states currently give their boards
more autonomy than SB 202 would provide for the AELS Board. In
addition, other states require lower fees, and yet provide a higher
level of service. Mr. Tauriainen stated that he has had to travel
at his own expense to attend meetings of the board. SB 202 would
allow reimbursement for expenses. He does not think the intent of
SB 202 would be to allow the board to just set rate "willy-nilly".
To add language to the bill stating the rate would not exceed the
state's allowable per diem rate would be acceptable to all
concerned.
CHAIRMAN KELLY asked Mr. Tauriainen if the board currently receives
a per diem.
MR. TAURIAINEN responded that members receive per diem for the
regular quarterly meetings, but not necessarily for other committee
meetings.
CHAIRMAN KELLY asked what the current per diem rate is.
MR. TAURIAINEN replied it currently is the state rate.
MS. REARDON added that the allowance for food is $42 per day and
members are reimbursed for their hotel bill.
Number 453
MR. TAURIAINEN continued, saying that the board has had difficulty
retaining licensing examiners. This has caused problems in
maintaining continuity and a historical perspective. Mr.
Tauriainen thinks SB 202 would reduce overhead and increase
efficiency. He realizes that the division is hampered in the work
it can do with the funds available to it.
Number 480
MR. TAURIAINEN stated, regarding legal support for the board, he
does not agree that the board has received consistent and unified
legal support from the Department of Law.
Number 490
CHAIRMAN KELLY asked Ms. Reardon if, under SB 202, employees of the
board would continue to be state employees.
MS. REARDON responded it is her understanding that the positions
would be in the exempt service and could be hired and fired at the
will of the board.
Number 500
CHAIRMAN KELLY asked if there would be more state employees for the
board under SB 202 than there currently are today.
MS. REARDON replied that SB 202 is permissive in that the board may
hire staff as needed. But the AELS Board's budget authorization
will ultimately determine that. We anticipated in the fiscal note
that the two existing positions dedicated to the board's
functioning, a range 12 licensing examiner and a range 8 clerk,
would be moved over to the autonomous board, and that the board
would probably want to hire three additional positions: an
executive secretary at a range 18, an accounting clerk III at a
range 10, and an investigator at a range 18.
SENATOR SALO asked Ms. Reardon if there are other semi-autonomous
boards.
MS. REARDON responded there are none in her division. APUC is a
semi-autonomous board that is still under the jurisdiction of the
Department of Commerce & Economic Development. Ms. Reardon thinks
the AELS Board would be similar to APUC under SB 202.
SENATOR SALO asked how it would compare with AHFC.
MS. REARDON does not think the AELS Board would be that autonomous,
because SB 202 would not exempt them from the APA or the
centralized licensing statute that says the department shall set
fees. However, she would need to research that issue to give a
more thorough answer.
Number 532
SENATOR TORGERSON asked Ms. Reardon the breakdown between existing
costs of operating the board and new costs. He also asked if
licensing fees will be raised accordingly to cover additional
costs.
MS. REARDON responded that additional costs would be recovered
through higher licensing fees. However, fees would probably not
have to be raised very much, because last years' licensing fees
were only $67,000 less than the amount contained in the fiscal
note. But another consideration is that if the 5,000 licensees of
the AELS Board were pulled out of the division's pool of licensees,
fees would rise for the remaining licensees in order to cover
indirect administrative costs in the division. Each licensee under
the Division of Occupational Licensing pays approximately $35 per
year to cover indirect administrative costs. If the board "goes
away", there will be 5,000 fewer people to share that cost.
Regarding the question of how much is new money, about $185,000
would be existing funds and about $407,200 would be new funds. Ms.
Reardon related other information contained in the fiscal note.
SENATOR TORGERSON asked why we shouldn't look at having a situation
similar to that which would be set up by SB 202 for all the boards.
MS. REARDON didn't think that would be feasible for the smaller
boards, especially those with fewer than 500 licensees. She also
has some other problems with that set up.
Number 575
SENATOR DUNCAN asked how much more remaining licensees would have
to pay to support indirect administrative costs in the division if
the AELS Board licensees are no longer contributing.
MS. REARDON thinks it would be about $17 per remaining licensee.
A discussion ensues as to what the impact would be on the remaining
licensees, but no conclusion is reached.
TAPE 96-4, SIDE B
Number 590
CHAIRMAN KELLY asked Ms. Reardon for a breakdown of the annual fee
for licensees of all boards under the Division of Occupational
Licensing. He would like the information in two columns: one with
the annual fee, and the other with the annual revenue to the state.
MS. REARDON noted that fees are collected every other year, and
asked the chairman if he wanted the information in that format, or
if he would like it broken down to what licensees would pay if it
was an annual fee.
CHAIRMAN KELLY replied that Ms. Reardon could supply the
information in a two-year format.
Number 575
SENATOR MILLER stated he would like to see an opinion from the
mining association regarding deletion of their designated seat on
the board. He also asked Senator Leman if he wants the governor to
have to appoint from a list submitted to him from industry
organizations, or if he wants the governor to simply take such a
submission into consideration.
Number 569
SENATOR LEMAN replied that the language in SB 202 does not force
the governor to only consider those names submitted by
organizations; a provision like that would likely meet with
opposition from the governor. But he thinks the language would
encourage the governor to consider such submissions.
SENATOR MILLER suggests increasing the number of board members by
one, and specifying a seat for a member from each discipline of the
profession. If we eliminate a mining engineer, to be fair we
should eliminate the two civil engineers.
Number 555
SENATOR LEMAN responded that the additional challenge of
geographical representation also needs to be taken into
consideration. He is not suggesting that a mining engineer is not
important, but he is suggesting that a chemical engineer, a
petroleum engineer, an electrical engineer, and a mechanical
engineer are important.
Number 540
SENATOR DUNCAN commented he is not sure the legislature can require
the governor to appoint from a specific list.
CHAIRMAN KELLY asked committee staff to get a legal opinion
regarding how far the legislature can go in requiring the governor
to appoint members to boards and commissions.
CHAIRMAN KELLY asked if, since mining is a growth industry at this
time, we could anticipate more mining engineers in the near future.
SENATOR MILLER replied he would think so.
Number 530
CHAIRMAN KELLY stated the committee would work on SB 202 and bring
it up at a later date. Hearing no further testimony, Chairman
Kelly adjourned the Senate Labor & Commerce Committee meeting at
2:25 p.m.
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